Monday, February 22, 2016
Tuesday, December 15, 2015
Polygamy Not Eternal
Denver has said much about not wanting people to follow or depend too much upon him. I find it interesting that so many are so interested in nearly every thing he writes or states on most every subject, except for his pre-2014 statements on the history of plural marriage (specifically all the posts he wrote on his blog in June 2012). Snuffer plainly explained that Joseph Smith was somehow involved with Plural Marriage. He stated that D&C 132 is a collection of many revelations given to Joseph (with just a few word changes by Brigham Young). Snuffer had previously explained how God does allow some of His people to have plural wives (if commanded, or allowed for those who have sealing authority), and that the un-authorized by God living of plural marriage is an abomination.
But after 2014, he seems to change his tone on the topic, as if he is trying to allow people to now assume Joseph never lived it and that plural marriage is always an abomination. He states that Joseph did not commit adultery. I agree. For me, I look at every statement Snuffer makes on the topic, and look at it all as a whole. If something contradicts, I ask why. As any one should. All this reminds me of when the Lord said I come not to bring piece, but a sword. A two-edged sword that cuts both ways. Obvioulsy even Denver was learning more truth or untruth on the topic during this year.
On Nov. 1st I emailed and asked Denver what he meant when he stated on his blog October 31st that "God does not justify carnal relations except between one man and his one wife". His reply came a couple hours later. I feel safe only sharing what Denver states publicly. I can say one comment agrees with his pre-2014 statements on the topic and I so would love to share it here. On Nov. 4th he posted a blog and only mentioned one of the many things he had stated to me privately. That one thing was about Cain (should read the seed of Cain) being the first one recorded in the biblical record to live it. He stated in his blog "...the adulterous taking of multiple wives is a pattern originated by Cain and later imitated by Brigham Young". I also agree. Obviously a murderer like cain or his son lamech is not allowed to be one of God's people who can rightly be authorized to live such a system. He said the practice needs to come to an end.
In his recent Mormon History talk found here: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mormon-History.pdf Snuffer reminds us that he will talk more about some topics as promised. Snuffer had previously told me in person, at the end of the St George Lecture in 2014, that he will explain more about this topic, after I commented to him that he stated some can be allowed or commanded to live as he discussed in his book Passing The Heavenly Gift and on his blog (for heavens sakes actually read what he wrote on the topic in PTHG chapter 6 - his words there also agree with his many blog posts and other lectures). Likely a topic to fully explain when people are ready to actually digest it all properly. More foundational Kingdom teachings need to be understood first? Snuffer not explaining it all now, is enough to help others understand that there is something hard to share on this topic that most are not ready for. If Joseph Smith did not actually live this familial system, just like Abraham, Jacob, Moses and others had... then why not simply say so and clearly settle the case? That explanation seems easy.
I had some serious questions about Denver's statement on Oct 31st about acceptable relations should only be between a man and his wife. Denver's comment there was more geared to open relations (like the secret adulterous/fornicative spiritual wifery that Bennett and Higby and others were doing) and gay relations. But the one man and one woman comment (along with his other now contradictory, anti-accept plural marriage principle statements the past year) was enough to push me to contact him. In 2010 I had quite a few conversations with him via email. But he told me to read all his books first and stopped replying to me and to other friends later that same year. He was busy with his books and lots of people were starting to contact him. I hadn't received a reply from him in years. I didn't know if I would get a response. My main question to him on Nov. 1st was "Are you saying no one in our day... could be be 132 justified like you use to write prior to 2014?" After getting one response from him, there was one little vague statement that really caught me off guard and caused some serious confusion. That statement, paired with his recent image of God being a man and a woman statements, caused me to take it to the Lord on Nov 1st. An answer came the next day. It was additional information I had not understand on top of the years of research and understanding I already had on the topic. I did not like it. I was hoping I had received false revelation. I was hoping what Denver had been saying publicly and privately to me was incorrect. Hoping there was a mistake intentionally being made by him. I went back to the scriptures in D&C 132 and Jacob ch 2. Certain words seemed to jump out at me and made more sense than ever. I still struggled with the new information.
Well, I wanted further clarification, some confirmation on my possible revelation that was causing me so much confusion. Good or bad for doing so, it didn't matter at the time. I was eager to settle it. I emailed some follow up questions and responses. 2 or 3 emails were sent to him for a couple weeks. No reply. He only made a public post about cain's seed living it in the Bible, and recently gave more subtle little hints, but not much was really expressed in his Mormon History talk... where he again states that more details will be given in the future. That could be a public answer to show he wants to put off answering my private questions, but I really wanted clarification from him on his own reply he had made to me and to see if I was heading towards further light or darkness on the topic. I was still in a bit of mental agony for those three weeks. Too many questions. Too many contradictions with scripture and some of Joseph Smith's words and actions (if and where recorded accurately). Too many buts and what ifs.
On Nov. 22nd, while having a nice spiritual Sunday afternoon, I was again reading chapter 6 of Passing the Heavenly Gift. Denver's use and quoting of the words from D&C 132. I looked at the D&C 132 verses again. I stared out the window as I often do to ponder. I ask. How can some of God's people be allowed to live plural marriage in mortality, if there is only one man and one woman in God's Kingdom (image of God end state of being)? Why would God permit something for time only? Only one Queen out of all of the wives of all those great prophets of the past make it with one King/Man? The other wives who don't make queenship, are recycled into another mortality in another creation cycle and have no claim at all on their man they had hopes and expectations to be with in eternity? Why was Joseph sealing people to himself, even some who were married for time, if they do not go with him in God's Kingdom/eternity? These were the questions for three weeks that were bothering me. How could my new understanding jive with what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived? How could my own previous revelations on the matter agree with the new understanding? Something must be amiss. Was I deceived somewhere? Where? Is Denver intending to be contradictory intentionally to keep people from relying too much upon him and not enough on the Lord?
I ponder some more. Some information and word began flowing. All I can say is that the explanations that went on for some time was one of the biggest relief or ah-hah moments I've had. It made more sense. It relaxed my little mental agony going on for weeks. Boy does Snuffer have some things to explain in the future. Some questions still remain, but I think I got enough to help settle my mind. We have to first understand single salvation vs couple exaltation, sealing authority, raising up seed to the Lord (not polygamy), reflect on C&E promises, realize that some standings in eternity are not "eternal" or forever but in deed more glorious a standing than being recycled into another mortal probation in a different creation period, etc. But also note, that this answer came and was totally against everything I had researched in church history and scriptures. I really thought I had the polygamy topic all figured out.
Well, I wanted further clarification, some confirmation on my possible revelation that was causing me so much confusion. Good or bad for doing so, it didn't matter at the time. I was eager to settle it. I emailed some follow up questions and responses. 2 or 3 emails were sent to him for a couple weeks. No reply. He only made a public post about cain's seed living it in the Bible, and recently gave more subtle little hints, but not much was really expressed in his Mormon History talk... where he again states that more details will be given in the future. That could be a public answer to show he wants to put off answering my private questions, but I really wanted clarification from him on his own reply he had made to me and to see if I was heading towards further light or darkness on the topic. I was still in a bit of mental agony for those three weeks. Too many questions. Too many contradictions with scripture and some of Joseph Smith's words and actions (if and where recorded accurately). Too many buts and what ifs.
On Nov. 22nd, while having a nice spiritual Sunday afternoon, I was again reading chapter 6 of Passing the Heavenly Gift. Denver's use and quoting of the words from D&C 132. I looked at the D&C 132 verses again. I stared out the window as I often do to ponder. I ask. How can some of God's people be allowed to live plural marriage in mortality, if there is only one man and one woman in God's Kingdom (image of God end state of being)? Why would God permit something for time only? Only one Queen out of all of the wives of all those great prophets of the past make it with one King/Man? The other wives who don't make queenship, are recycled into another mortality in another creation cycle and have no claim at all on their man they had hopes and expectations to be with in eternity? Why was Joseph sealing people to himself, even some who were married for time, if they do not go with him in God's Kingdom/eternity? These were the questions for three weeks that were bothering me. How could my new understanding jive with what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived? How could my own previous revelations on the matter agree with the new understanding? Something must be amiss. Was I deceived somewhere? Where? Is Denver intending to be contradictory intentionally to keep people from relying too much upon him and not enough on the Lord?
I ponder some more. Some information and word began flowing. All I can say is that the explanations that went on for some time was one of the biggest relief or ah-hah moments I've had. It made more sense. It relaxed my little mental agony going on for weeks. Boy does Snuffer have some things to explain in the future. Some questions still remain, but I think I got enough to help settle my mind. We have to first understand single salvation vs couple exaltation, sealing authority, raising up seed to the Lord (not polygamy), reflect on C&E promises, realize that some standings in eternity are not "eternal" or forever but in deed more glorious a standing than being recycled into another mortal probation in a different creation period, etc. But also note, that this answer came and was totally against everything I had researched in church history and scriptures. I really thought I had the polygamy topic all figured out.
Short answer obtained between Nov 2-22, is, plural marriage IS NOT ETERNAL. I was told that Adam and Eve are the example of the Image of God. Of how we are all supposed to be. 1 King and 1 Queen. It was only suffered/reluctantly allowed in mortality by those in the Old Testament, because that was their custom. A custom originally began by the son of Cain. It is not something we want to get caught up with in our day!
2025 Update: Joseph Smith was never living polygamy. He was only doing patriarchal family sealings to connect families to his. Brigham Young took what he was doing, to make it appear that Joseph Smith started polygamy in the church, when it was Brigham!
As Snuffer later stated in his paper this week on Mormon History, the answers do come if you keep pondering and asking. Some of the words he used in his paper later, actually matched some of the exact words the Lord had used to explain some things to me on Nov. 22nd.
Answers come. It may take some time to be prepared to see it, and likely will be given here and there, when you are ready to receive it. Many topics take some foundational ideas to first be understood, before really seeing the bigger picture.
Anyways, go to the Lord to confirm and for explanations. They come. Through the veil process is a harder ordeal (it really is info given to your spirit from the Spirit which has to trickle down via hard to hear words and enlightenment into your mortal understanding) but I see the wisdom in it. Part of the journey. The mortal man still wishes the Lord would just reveal Himself in the flesh and explain things easily and quickly. Sure would be cool to go up and hang with Moses and other angels like Denver and others have done! Would to God that we were all near or on that level.
It is so much easier to understand a greater view of things, when you peer into eternity for a few minutes and get a fuller explanation.
Sometimes frustration for a time can keep motivating you to keep seeking for answers.
Snuffer could explain the truth on the topic now. I could try to explain what I now understand. Snuffer obviously has reasons not to dive too far into it at this time, otherwise he would have cleared things up. I see the wisdom in not declaring it openly. I am sure there is more to learn, but I am satisfied for now. My increase of intelligence on the matter is comforting. I'm sure there is more to learn, seems there always is! Frustration is not always a bad thing, it can be motivational.
I am just another fool on the same trek. A trek I have been on since 2008 after discovering what is really necessary to live in God's Kingdom forever. I have had some revelations through the veil. Had a couple visions. Had very small conversations spiritually, thru the veil with Angels (hey maybe some physical ones unaware). Understandings have increased over time with a little here and a little there. I remember for about 2 yrs being woken up numerous times hearing some kind of scripture-like instruction being given that I wish my mortal mind could diligently receive and remember. Have felt un-explainable glorious things at times and realized later what it meant. I have had some failures. I have also faced evil things that I never thought possible and don't want to discuss. I have seen hell do all they can through weaknesses of others close to me. Have heard great things that I sometimes think cannot be. I still to this day lament and desire with all my heart to be much further along the path than I am, as I am sure most probably feel.
But I want and am willing to understand all things. Wading in the deep end is not a problem for me either. I seek and ask always. If I lack intelligent understanding, I want it. If I misunderstand anything, I want correction. If the Lord has something to show me I need to work on, I want to hear it. I don't get offended if people don't yet understand what I do or have a different opinion on a topic (maybe a little bothered at personal opinions expressed that show a lack of research/pondering). I will not stop meeting with you or falsely assume negative things about you for trying to figure out some truth (this has happened to me in our growing LDS remnant community that hopes to one day be a part of Zion).
Hold to the Rod, He wants you to weary Him. He wants you to take your questions to Him. If Snuffer or others don't want to share something, go to the Lord and do all to pierce that veil (yes, it sometimes seems like a solid brick wall). Never give up, no matter how hard things in your life become, or how distant you think you are to Him. No matter how confused you are on some topic. Questions and misunderstandings are an opportunity. Problems that the adversary is allowed to cause you while on your trek are also opportunities. Take them as they come, and endure them well. Your salvation and/or exaltation depends on it.
To the truth, and nothing but. I care less about the misunderstandings and opinions of men. What I really want is the truth on everything I can, from The Source.
As Snuffer later stated in his paper this week on Mormon History, the answers do come if you keep pondering and asking. Some of the words he used in his paper later, actually matched some of the exact words the Lord had used to explain some things to me on Nov. 22nd.
Answers come. It may take some time to be prepared to see it, and likely will be given here and there, when you are ready to receive it. Many topics take some foundational ideas to first be understood, before really seeing the bigger picture.
Anyways, go to the Lord to confirm and for explanations. They come. Through the veil process is a harder ordeal (it really is info given to your spirit from the Spirit which has to trickle down via hard to hear words and enlightenment into your mortal understanding) but I see the wisdom in it. Part of the journey. The mortal man still wishes the Lord would just reveal Himself in the flesh and explain things easily and quickly. Sure would be cool to go up and hang with Moses and other angels like Denver and others have done! Would to God that we were all near or on that level.
It is so much easier to understand a greater view of things, when you peer into eternity for a few minutes and get a fuller explanation.
Sometimes frustration for a time can keep motivating you to keep seeking for answers.
Snuffer could explain the truth on the topic now. I could try to explain what I now understand. Snuffer obviously has reasons not to dive too far into it at this time, otherwise he would have cleared things up. I see the wisdom in not declaring it openly. I am sure there is more to learn, but I am satisfied for now. My increase of intelligence on the matter is comforting. I'm sure there is more to learn, seems there always is! Frustration is not always a bad thing, it can be motivational.
I am just another fool on the same trek. A trek I have been on since 2008 after discovering what is really necessary to live in God's Kingdom forever. I have had some revelations through the veil. Had a couple visions. Had very small conversations spiritually, thru the veil with Angels (hey maybe some physical ones unaware). Understandings have increased over time with a little here and a little there. I remember for about 2 yrs being woken up numerous times hearing some kind of scripture-like instruction being given that I wish my mortal mind could diligently receive and remember. Have felt un-explainable glorious things at times and realized later what it meant. I have had some failures. I have also faced evil things that I never thought possible and don't want to discuss. I have seen hell do all they can through weaknesses of others close to me. Have heard great things that I sometimes think cannot be. I still to this day lament and desire with all my heart to be much further along the path than I am, as I am sure most probably feel.
But I want and am willing to understand all things. Wading in the deep end is not a problem for me either. I seek and ask always. If I lack intelligent understanding, I want it. If I misunderstand anything, I want correction. If the Lord has something to show me I need to work on, I want to hear it. I don't get offended if people don't yet understand what I do or have a different opinion on a topic (maybe a little bothered at personal opinions expressed that show a lack of research/pondering). I will not stop meeting with you or falsely assume negative things about you for trying to figure out some truth (this has happened to me in our growing LDS remnant community that hopes to one day be a part of Zion).
Hold to the Rod, He wants you to weary Him. He wants you to take your questions to Him. If Snuffer or others don't want to share something, go to the Lord and do all to pierce that veil (yes, it sometimes seems like a solid brick wall). Never give up, no matter how hard things in your life become, or how distant you think you are to Him. No matter how confused you are on some topic. Questions and misunderstandings are an opportunity. Problems that the adversary is allowed to cause you while on your trek are also opportunities. Take them as they come, and endure them well. Your salvation and/or exaltation depends on it.
To the truth, and nothing but. I care less about the misunderstandings and opinions of men. What I really want is the truth on everything I can, from The Source.
Sunday, July 5, 2015
Patriarchal Priesthood and the Presiding Patriarch
Quote:
"In the Latter Day Saint movement, the Presiding Patriarch (also called Presiding Evangelist, Patriarch over the Church, Patriarch of the Church, or Patriarch to the Church) is a church-wide leadership office within the priesthood. Among the duties of the Presiding Patriarch are to preside in council meetings, ordain other patriarchs, and administer patriarchal blessings.
Originally, the office of Presiding Patriarch was one of the highest and most important offices of the church's priesthood. The role was equated by Joseph Smith, Jr. with Biblical patriarchs from Adam to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and it was expected that the office would descend through lineal succession from father to son. This precedent was set when Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother, became the second Presiding Patriarch because he was the eldest surviving son of the first Presiding Patriarch, Joseph Smith, Sr. When the office was given to Hyrum, he was given "keys of the patriarchal priesthood over the kingdom of God on earth, even the Church of the Latter Day Saints."[1] Thus, some have argued that Presiding Patriarch is an office of the Patriarchal Priesthood. However, the existence and meaning of the Patriarchal Priesthood is controversial and uncertain."
-From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presiding_Patriarch
This may not be church sourced, but the conclusion is accurate.
Check out the Presiding Patriarch diagram at the link above and note all the times when there was a break, or when there was not Presiding Patriarch, or no presiding patriarch was recognized by the church but was "acting in the office".
This office is the one that is required to be selected from among the Presiding Patriarch's sons, while still alive. This is the Priesthood (Patriarchal) that was suppose to descend from Father to Son. The current Presiding Patriarch must select the most righteous, eldest son (and teachings and ordinances must remain unchanged for heaven to accept it's continuance). It never happened when Hyrum held that office.
The break first in church history occurred with the death of Hyrum in 1844. You can see the next one is not selected by the church until 1845, under BY as church President. Joseph Smith did not select who should follow him as church president either (there was no church president for 3 years after Joseph). Hyrum Smith did not select and bless his Heir as Presiding Patriarch as the scriptures show is the pattern. Neither God nor Hyrum preserved the Presiding Head Patriarch office (or even the office of Church President), though Joseph and Hyrum knew they would be killed if they did not flee with their fellow polygamist(confidentially) friends to the rockies. They both knew it would come to an end, and they in fact chose to leave the church on their own. The church was taken over by the Qof12. Brigham 3 years later convinced everyone to accept his self elected position to be President of the church. It has been in the wilderness since.
As Emma said, there is no church without Joseph. The Church of Christ above once again began to be separated from the organized church on earth. More than that, there was no more Presiding Patriarch over a growing family of God on earth, and no valid second anointings passing on sealing power or C&E man to man since (despite the leader's attempts to do other wise).
How can God leave with the church the Patriarchal Order, or even sealing power among them (which it was intended to be directed by a Head Patriarch), when these hugely important things are not even understood by them?
How can any church leader or member, or other fundy leader or member who broke off the church well after the time of Hyrum Smith (well after the break), think that valid second anointings have been passed on man to man, which is supposed to only be valid under Patriarchal Priesthood and under the direction of the Presiding Patriarch, when confusion has reigned about the Office and sealing power, plural marriage, law of adoption and many other things since the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, AND there have been so many breaks between Presiding Patriarch's?????
This is why it is understandable to many that that the church or any of it's polygamist breakoffs do not hold sealing power or the ability to grant a promise of eternal life embodied in the second anointing ordinance, though the church and many fundy groups still fame claim and perform today.
They cannot hold that which they do not understand or have validly passed along in Patriarchal order father to son.
It needs re-stored back to the earth. That which was at the beginning with our Patriarchal Fathers. We need to turn our hearts to them. We need to learn what they had, and seek with all our might to get it back. They need us. We need them.
Adam, Seth, Enos and his sons had it on the earth for a time up until Enoch (whose righteous city was removed) and Shem/Melchizedek who made it through the flood in hopes to bring back the order back to the earth after a major cleansing.
Cain killed Able, hoping that this honorable office would fall upon him, instead of Able. That barred him and his seed from holding it.
It was restored to Abraham, after becoming a prophet, after passing some tests of loyalty, obedience and with much sacrifice, was able to get back what the first line of Patriarch's had on the earth.
The last man to hold it was Ephraim, son of Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.
Pharaoh fame claimed this Patriarchal Priesthood Order. He enslaved the last people who should have maintained what their Father Abraham brought back. He built temples, focused a lot on resurrection which the Patriarchal Priesthood does have a lot to deal with, and intended it to go through to his first born son. Until God proved he was with Moses and God took that son in a final plague. Pharaoh learned the hard way that he did not hold it.
God sent Moses the prophet to free the Hebrews/Israelites from Egyptian slavery, performed amazing miracles to free them, was trying to get them to a promised land where they too could get back the Patriarchal order that had been lost. After being in the wilderness for 40 years, they never make it to that land, and Moses is taken from them, and they are left to themselves.
God sent many prophets trying to turn them back to the original gospel and priesthood order of things. Even Christ Himself came to return things, and was killed. There was not enough success and time to return them to the order of old and re-gather them into a Patriarchal Family of God.
Maybe Lehi in the Book of Mormon was able to restore it and it descended through his sons for a time. Another thing to ponder. Maybe what the sealed portion speaks more of?
God tried to restore it back to the seed of Abraham and Sons, who are also the seed of Adam, in the last days with Joseph Smith Sr. and his son Hyrum Smith, with Joseph Smith the prophet to facilitate and prepare his Father and elder brother to become such. The Lord was trying to get the Patriarchal Priesthood Order that was had at first into their hands, but with the contention, lack of sacrifice by focusing on and finishing the temple, a Patriarchal Family and order was never fully restored. Hyrum was put into the office, but never had a chance to magnify it. These two brothers were taken at the same time, without naming heirs or successors. It has been put on pause.
God is going to restore that which was at first, and He is going to restore it using one like unto Moses, from the house or descendents of those who held it last. Ephraim was supposed to bring it back. They will. But it is going to come from a different part of the "house" than is expected by the majority of modern Mormons today. I am sure hell will do everything to prevent it. Hell has succeeded in times past. Let us not let that happen again.
So, who will?
Go and do the works of Abraham (seek the greater knowledge and things that he had), and bring back that which he was able to bring back to the earth. You first need: Baptism. Teachings of prophets current and past. Baptism of Fire. Revelation. Some priesthood received or acknowledged. Calling and election. Sealing power. Etc. These things can still be had, despite lacking a Presiding Patriarch and having a full Patriarchal Family gathered on earth. It has happened before in Biblical and Book of Mormon history during Patriarchal breaks, it can happen again.
Then Zion.
Then the millennium.
Where will you be found in the near future?
D&C 10:65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
O, ye nations of the earth, how often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, but ye would not!
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.
And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.
O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.
"In the Latter Day Saint movement, the Presiding Patriarch (also called Presiding Evangelist, Patriarch over the Church, Patriarch of the Church, or Patriarch to the Church) is a church-wide leadership office within the priesthood. Among the duties of the Presiding Patriarch are to preside in council meetings, ordain other patriarchs, and administer patriarchal blessings.
Originally, the office of Presiding Patriarch was one of the highest and most important offices of the church's priesthood. The role was equated by Joseph Smith, Jr. with Biblical patriarchs from Adam to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and it was expected that the office would descend through lineal succession from father to son. This precedent was set when Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother, became the second Presiding Patriarch because he was the eldest surviving son of the first Presiding Patriarch, Joseph Smith, Sr. When the office was given to Hyrum, he was given "keys of the patriarchal priesthood over the kingdom of God on earth, even the Church of the Latter Day Saints."[1] Thus, some have argued that Presiding Patriarch is an office of the Patriarchal Priesthood. However, the existence and meaning of the Patriarchal Priesthood is controversial and uncertain."
-From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presiding_Patriarch
This may not be church sourced, but the conclusion is accurate.
Check out the Presiding Patriarch diagram at the link above and note all the times when there was a break, or when there was not Presiding Patriarch, or no presiding patriarch was recognized by the church but was "acting in the office".
This office is the one that is required to be selected from among the Presiding Patriarch's sons, while still alive. This is the Priesthood (Patriarchal) that was suppose to descend from Father to Son. The current Presiding Patriarch must select the most righteous, eldest son (and teachings and ordinances must remain unchanged for heaven to accept it's continuance). It never happened when Hyrum held that office.
The break first in church history occurred with the death of Hyrum in 1844. You can see the next one is not selected by the church until 1845, under BY as church President. Joseph Smith did not select who should follow him as church president either (there was no church president for 3 years after Joseph). Hyrum Smith did not select and bless his Heir as Presiding Patriarch as the scriptures show is the pattern. Neither God nor Hyrum preserved the Presiding Head Patriarch office (or even the office of Church President), though Joseph and Hyrum knew they would be killed if they did not flee with their fellow polygamist(confidentially) friends to the rockies. They both knew it would come to an end, and they in fact chose to leave the church on their own. The church was taken over by the Qof12. Brigham 3 years later convinced everyone to accept his self elected position to be President of the church. It has been in the wilderness since.
As Emma said, there is no church without Joseph. The Church of Christ above once again began to be separated from the organized church on earth. More than that, there was no more Presiding Patriarch over a growing family of God on earth, and no valid second anointings passing on sealing power or C&E man to man since (despite the leader's attempts to do other wise).
How can God leave with the church the Patriarchal Order, or even sealing power among them (which it was intended to be directed by a Head Patriarch), when these hugely important things are not even understood by them?
How can any church leader or member, or other fundy leader or member who broke off the church well after the time of Hyrum Smith (well after the break), think that valid second anointings have been passed on man to man, which is supposed to only be valid under Patriarchal Priesthood and under the direction of the Presiding Patriarch, when confusion has reigned about the Office and sealing power, plural marriage, law of adoption and many other things since the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, AND there have been so many breaks between Presiding Patriarch's?????
This is why it is understandable to many that that the church or any of it's polygamist breakoffs do not hold sealing power or the ability to grant a promise of eternal life embodied in the second anointing ordinance, though the church and many fundy groups still fame claim and perform today.
They cannot hold that which they do not understand or have validly passed along in Patriarchal order father to son.
It needs re-stored back to the earth. That which was at the beginning with our Patriarchal Fathers. We need to turn our hearts to them. We need to learn what they had, and seek with all our might to get it back. They need us. We need them.
Adam, Seth, Enos and his sons had it on the earth for a time up until Enoch (whose righteous city was removed) and Shem/Melchizedek who made it through the flood in hopes to bring back the order back to the earth after a major cleansing.
Cain killed Able, hoping that this honorable office would fall upon him, instead of Able. That barred him and his seed from holding it.
It was restored to Abraham, after becoming a prophet, after passing some tests of loyalty, obedience and with much sacrifice, was able to get back what the first line of Patriarch's had on the earth.
The last man to hold it was Ephraim, son of Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.
Pharaoh fame claimed this Patriarchal Priesthood Order. He enslaved the last people who should have maintained what their Father Abraham brought back. He built temples, focused a lot on resurrection which the Patriarchal Priesthood does have a lot to deal with, and intended it to go through to his first born son. Until God proved he was with Moses and God took that son in a final plague. Pharaoh learned the hard way that he did not hold it.
God sent Moses the prophet to free the Hebrews/Israelites from Egyptian slavery, performed amazing miracles to free them, was trying to get them to a promised land where they too could get back the Patriarchal order that had been lost. After being in the wilderness for 40 years, they never make it to that land, and Moses is taken from them, and they are left to themselves.
God sent many prophets trying to turn them back to the original gospel and priesthood order of things. Even Christ Himself came to return things, and was killed. There was not enough success and time to return them to the order of old and re-gather them into a Patriarchal Family of God.
Maybe Lehi in the Book of Mormon was able to restore it and it descended through his sons for a time. Another thing to ponder. Maybe what the sealed portion speaks more of?
God tried to restore it back to the seed of Abraham and Sons, who are also the seed of Adam, in the last days with Joseph Smith Sr. and his son Hyrum Smith, with Joseph Smith the prophet to facilitate and prepare his Father and elder brother to become such. The Lord was trying to get the Patriarchal Priesthood Order that was had at first into their hands, but with the contention, lack of sacrifice by focusing on and finishing the temple, a Patriarchal Family and order was never fully restored. Hyrum was put into the office, but never had a chance to magnify it. These two brothers were taken at the same time, without naming heirs or successors. It has been put on pause.
God is going to restore that which was at first, and He is going to restore it using one like unto Moses, from the house or descendents of those who held it last. Ephraim was supposed to bring it back. They will. But it is going to come from a different part of the "house" than is expected by the majority of modern Mormons today. I am sure hell will do everything to prevent it. Hell has succeeded in times past. Let us not let that happen again.
So, who will?
Go and do the works of Abraham (seek the greater knowledge and things that he had), and bring back that which he was able to bring back to the earth. You first need: Baptism. Teachings of prophets current and past. Baptism of Fire. Revelation. Some priesthood received or acknowledged. Calling and election. Sealing power. Etc. These things can still be had, despite lacking a Presiding Patriarch and having a full Patriarchal Family gathered on earth. It has happened before in Biblical and Book of Mormon history during Patriarchal breaks, it can happen again.
Then Zion.
Then the millennium.
Where will you be found in the near future?
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Doctrine and Covenants 43:24
Luke 13:34
3 Nephi 10:4-5
3 Nephi 10:6
Doctrine and Covenants 29:2
Thursday, April 16, 2015
Separation of the Wheat from the Tares
http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Plural-Marriage.pdf
Why the church and fundamentalism has been out of order since Joseph Smith... only the hard hearted and prideful will fail to give it all a proper hearing. Hope that isn't the case with any of the people I know or are acquainted with. Even the mock up or type and shadow of the real thing that was in the church (The Head Patriarch) came to an end. Read the entire article linked to above.
Quoting from the pdf posted above:
"Now even the imitation of it has come to an end, because there is no perpetuation “in honorable remembrance” of the descendants of Hyrum Smith124 occupying the office of Patriar...ch to the Church. There have been many signs given by God that He was about to do something new from the time of the death of Joseph Smith till today. All that was left at the end was for a witness to be appointed, to come to declare, “Now it has come to an end.” In the last talked in the 10 lecture series I said, the witness has now come, and I am he. It has come to an end with something new now begun. One of the signs of it having come to an end was the passing of Eldred Smith. There are many other signs given if you look for them. You can see them all along the way, from the condemnation in 1832, to the expulsion from Missouri, the forced exodus from Nauvoo, the suffering during and following the exodus, the afflictions, judgments and wrath of God at the Saints, their pride, lying, deceit, hypocrisy, murders, priestcrafts, and whoredoms (as Christ foretold), inquisitorial abuse of the population129 once isolated from the US, mass-murders, contradictions in “fundamental” teachings, changes to the ordinances including the temple rites, quest for popularity and centrally-controlled, tightly correlated rejection of teachings—the history of the LDS Church has been a long, downward path. It has walked away from the light, and increasingly embraced darkness. Its members are now ruled by traditions that contradict the scriptures and commandments of God. They are asleep and cannot be awakened. God will now do something new and leave them to make their own way.
Emma Smith, Sidney Rigdon and William Marks said without Joseph Smith there was no church. They were right. As soon as Joseph Smith was out of the picture there was a complete overthrow of the church by the quorum of the 12. The quorum of the 12 substituted themselves in the place of the equal distribution of power in the church established by revelation."
Quoting from the pdf posted above:
"Now even the imitation of it has come to an end, because there is no perpetuation “in honorable remembrance” of the descendants of Hyrum Smith124 occupying the office of Patriar...ch to the Church. There have been many signs given by God that He was about to do something new from the time of the death of Joseph Smith till today. All that was left at the end was for a witness to be appointed, to come to declare, “Now it has come to an end.” In the last talked in the 10 lecture series I said, the witness has now come, and I am he. It has come to an end with something new now begun. One of the signs of it having come to an end was the passing of Eldred Smith. There are many other signs given if you look for them. You can see them all along the way, from the condemnation in 1832, to the expulsion from Missouri, the forced exodus from Nauvoo, the suffering during and following the exodus, the afflictions, judgments and wrath of God at the Saints, their pride, lying, deceit, hypocrisy, murders, priestcrafts, and whoredoms (as Christ foretold), inquisitorial abuse of the population129 once isolated from the US, mass-murders, contradictions in “fundamental” teachings, changes to the ordinances including the temple rites, quest for popularity and centrally-controlled, tightly correlated rejection of teachings—the history of the LDS Church has been a long, downward path. It has walked away from the light, and increasingly embraced darkness. Its members are now ruled by traditions that contradict the scriptures and commandments of God. They are asleep and cannot be awakened. God will now do something new and leave them to make their own way.
Emma Smith, Sidney Rigdon and William Marks said without Joseph Smith there was no church. They were right. As soon as Joseph Smith was out of the picture there was a complete overthrow of the church by the quorum of the 12. The quorum of the 12 substituted themselves in the place of the equal distribution of power in the church established by revelation."
Sunday, April 12, 2015
Mormon Fundamentalists
The Usual Response From the Fundamentalist Minded LDS World
I know, I know... it is hard to hear some of the negative history that some within the "new movement" are sharing about Presidents Brigham Young and John Taylor. Just let me say, I know exactly how you feel. I was once in your shoes back in 2009.
I had spent a couple years researching "greater things" that the church use to live and do. That included Joseph Smith's history, church history and fundamentalist history. I even spent a couple years trying to find a priesthood group who might hold higher priesthood to live higher things. I even thought to be a part of the AUB in 2009, though I knew they too were "out of order" in the connection with heaven among their leadership (I had already seen that disconnect within mainstream Mormonism for over a century, and I was so sad to find other groups claiming that their Priesthood leaders have "all the keys", even more than the church held... only to find that they too suffer from that usual silence from heaven).
My LDS mainstream family and friends were alienating their hearts from me, for me simply trying to find out what happened with our history. I was searching church and fundamentalist histories. I was visiting different groups and places. Investigating all the different forms of Mormonism found in our day. After all, in our mainstream Mormon mindset, those kinds of members who seek, search, knock and ponder deeply... "go off the deep end", or become "apostate", so we falsely judge at times. The only people then welcoming me with open arms were fundamentalist friends. But my search there also ended up not yielding the fruits I was looking for. At this time I did know that no one was a Prophet quite like Joseph Smith was (seriously, look at his fruits), but I at least thought that Brigham and John Taylor were at least close to it. In late 2009 I was told by some new friends I met at Avraham Gileadi classes about Denver Snuffer. I had his first book setting on my shelf. I hadn't read it yet. I went home to begin. I read a few of his books. I began reading his blog. I commented a lot on his blog. I started contacting him via email early in 2010.
I had began to understand that Snuffer saw things being "out of order" clear back to the death of Joseph Smith and Hyrum. He told me there was a break (I can publicly say what he said privately in 2010, because he just declared it publicly in his plural marriage talk in 2015). But up to this point in my journey, I enjoyed some of the historical writings from and about Brigham Young and John Taylor. I mean, Pres Taylor was a stalwart type of man who would stand up for what he thought was true and right, no matter what. He said he would not give up on plural marriage being lived within the church, but that another President would have to do that. He sacrificed and suffered much to do so. Pres. Woodruff said he would never give up on it as well, at least at first. Then later he gives the manifesto as a way to deceptively make the government think that they had given up on it. If you have read Michael Quin's history on that topic: http://www.lds-mormon.com/quinn_polygamy.shtml - you will soon realize that press release, sometimes considered a "revelation" in mainstream Mormonism, was a red herring... a way to dishonestly try to get Utah territory to become a part of the United States, while still secretly continuing to live "their religion". The U.S. government wanted the Mormons to give up on plural marriage before giving them statehood. The leadership of the Mormons did not want to give up on something that Pres Young had begun within the church as a whole, and started teaching was a mandatory thing to become "one of the Sons of God" or to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Well, that press release was not in their minds to honor. In actuality, if you read the first manifesto, it really says they would stop doing plural marriages within the confines of the USA (or Utah territory they wanted to be a part of it). The leadership and others kept taking new wives after 1890. But they would have marriages performed secretly or outside the USA. They tried to "meet in the middle". But essentially, it was dishonest and deceptive to do what they did. That is why Pres. J.F. Smith had to issue another manifesto in 1906. There were a few more plural marriages that took place with church leadership approval even after that.
So here we are in 2015. Denver Snuffer and many within the LDS Remnant Community or the "new movement" (or rather the continuation of the restoration that began with Joseph Smith) that is occurring, are now saying that things have been out of order since 1844. I just recently had someone say to me (and I've been told the same before) something to the effect that: I can't accept or be a part of the LDS Remnant, because I don't like what they say about Brigham Young and John Taylor. Hence, the writing of this post.
But what does Snuffer and many within the new movement actually state? I think we allow Brigham Young to speak for himself. We discuss some of the negative history about Brigham's life that most do not want to hear, and we let others come to their own conclusion on the matter. But, you have to actually do some reading and research. What did he do as church President and Politician? What did he think? What were some things Brigham didn't understand, that he should have, if he held the keys to get answers to questions? Why was there a period of 3 years of confusion after the death of Joseph Smith? Have you read Andrew Ehat's BYU thesis paper on that matter yet? If not, you should stop and read it now: http://www.scribd.com/doc/35205295/Joseph-Smith-s-Introduction-of-Temple-Ordinances-and-the-1844-Mormon-Succession-Question-by-Andrew-Ehat#scribd
Let Brigham speak for himself:
"I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet…” The Office Journal of Brigham Young, 1858-1863, Book D (Hanna, UT: Collier’s Publishing Co., 2006),
Journal of Discourses, 5:177
"I do not profess to be a Prophet. I never called myself so; but I actually believe I am, because people are all the time telling me that I am."
"I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;” Brigham Young, Sermon, July 26, 1857, JD 5:77.
"I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people.” Brigham Young, Sermon, October, 7, 1864, JD 10:339.
"A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? . . . Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient." Journal of Discourses, 6:320
"You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles . . ." Times and Seasons, 5:618
The brethren testify that brother Brigham is brother Joseph's legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock. I do not care a groat who rises up. I do not think anything about being Joseph's successor. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:69.)
Another's retelling of what Brigham told her:
"Later near the end of his life, Susa Young Gates recorded that when asked if he had ever seen the Savior, Brigham responded that he hadn’t, and that he didn’t expect to until he died." Note, 1885, Susa Young Gates Collection, Box 11, Folder 1, Subfolder 1, Utah State Archives, Salt Lake City.
Mary Rollins Lightner, one of Joseph’s wives, wrote about her confrontation with an Angel. She remembered a bit of a conflict with Brigham in the waning days of Nauvoo and wrote that “he Said he would give anything to have seen what I had.” Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Autobiography, in B. Carmon Hardy, ed., Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy: It’s Origin, Practice, and Demise (Norman, OK: Arthur H. Clark Co., 2007), 48.
By their fruits?
"Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, pg. 247, 1856)
"…They are the old hardened sinners, and are almost—if not altogether—past improvement, and are full of hell, and my prayer is that God's indignation may rest upon them, and that He will curse them from the crown of their heads to the soles of their feet. I say, that there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood… I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood… They are a perfect nuisance, and I want them cut off, and the sooner it is done the better.” (J.M. Grant, First Presidency, Journal of Discourses vol. 4: 219-220 Sept. 21,1856 SLC, Utah)"
Ok, so you get the picture. Above is what Brigham Young said about himself. There are a couple quotes of what others said Brigham stated to them. If you want to make more of Brigham than what he himself said of himself, that is your prerogative I suppose.
So, I came across quotes like these on my own. I knew none of the LDS Presidents after Joseph were prophets like he was. Then in 2012, Snuffer wrote this for a sunstone presentation. It is definitely worth the read. Full of quotes and history of the time Brigham Young was at the head of the church and territory: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BrighamYoungsTelestialKingdomRevised.pdf
In 2012, Denver published Passing the Heavenly Gift (search on Amazon.com), which contains some more hard to hear history that occurred under Brigham's leadership. You can say that I had a very hard time dealing with some of this history, as I once had thought that "the break" or that things were "out of order" since 1890, after Pres. Taylor.
Another good read about why things are out of order since Joseph, and where Denver states the break is the break in the Patriarchal Order that God was trying to restore with Joseph Smith, read Denver's Plural Marriage talk here: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/download/Plural_Marriage.mp3.zip
Be sure to take note of Brigham's dream about Joseph Smith in Denver's talk above. Brigham misunderstood the Law Of Adoption as a whole. Others were asking him what to do with that principle. Brigham has a dream of meeting Joseph Smith. In that dream Brigham ask's Joseph what to do, and Joseph doesn't answer his question, but just says to just follow the spirit. Here Brigham has a question. He doesn't know what to say on it. Even in his dream, and let's suppose it is inspired, then Joseph Smith is avoiding answering his question, precisely because not even Brigham Young is on par enough to receive the answer.
Also consider the history about Brigham making plural marriage a public church requirement. Remember, Joseph Smith was in fact sealing wives to himself (though we have no proof of him having relations that produced offspring with his sealed plural wives), and allowing very few others to live it as well. It was for a tight knit group within the church, but not a church wide thing to live in Joseph's day. If God actually wanted them to keep this going within the church, wouldn't He have made a way for their escape, for it to remain? Wouldn't God had protected their "religious right" and kept it in the church if it was as important as Brigham stated?
Though this history is hard to read or hear, it is necessary to understand why things have been out of order since Joseph Smith, Jr.
Well, if things were out of order since Joseph left the church to themselves, maybe it got back in order somewhere after Brigham? I wish that was the case.
Now, didn't the Lord state that He would fight their battles, if they were in the right way? Pres. Taylor spent a lot of time defending this principle. The familiar picture of him and the presidency in jailbird stripes comes to mind. The feds were threatening to not give them statehood. Taylor stood up for what he thought was right. He never gave in to their "enemies".
At first, Pres. Woodruff gives a couple revelations saying that they should never give up on this principle. Later we here him attending a meeting at the Bohemian Grove. Probably invited their by other elite. You can search that for yourself, it is still going on today in CA. Presidents and wealthy still attend it. They don't know what their ritual is actually teaching them, but they do participate. Alex Jones exposed it all on youtube and you can search it there. Woodruff at first said they would never give up on it. But the USA pressured him and the other leaders enough to make them afraid and to give in to that manipulative pressure. They were afraid of having their new buildings and new temples taken away from them by the feds if they did not give it up. So they try to fake it, hoping they can get their statehood and openly live plural marriage again later. The plan didn't work. Plural marriage was later completely removed from the church and it has never been brought back since. That same church began to reject members who didn't want to give it up just like the leaders had formerly done, and after being taught for decades that is was required for exaltation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Now ask yourself, why would God allow this to be removed from the Church, if Pres. Woodruff or Pres. J.F. Smith held the keys? Didn't the Lord declare that He would fight their battles? Why did Pres. Brigham Young have to ponder and the have a dream were Joseph wouldn't even answer him there? If our President's automatically get to hold "the Keys", what are they? Pres. Taylor tried to put together a "Book of Keys", trying to figure out what they are. Do they magically get them because we sustain them as our Priesthood Presidents? What about the key to ask and receive answers? Surely they were asking, and surely they were not receiving like the Prophet Joseph did, or like the many that fill our scriptures. It looks to me that the Lord never wanted to keep plural marriage alive, let alone make it a church requirement for highest exaltation. If there was a break, and men go on claiming to hold all the keys that Joseph held, while also understanding that they are not even close to being connected with God like he was... would God want this not very-well understood principle made as a church wide program? Could it be that God actually wanted it to end the way it was being practiced, and used the government to eradicate before more of a mess could be made?
Keep looking into church history after the manifestos. Keep looking into Mormon fundamentalist history since short creek. Things do not get any better. The whole thing just gets more confusing. More division is the usual course to so much confusion, being tossed to and fro. You have the plural marriage confusion. You have current LDS leaders going against what Pres. Brigham Young said about blacks never be able to hold priesthood, and the current leadership saying that they do not accept anyone who says such things. We have continued changes, doctrines and removals in LDS temple ordinances. Here we are today, confusion still reigns, while so many still claim to hold the only valid all powerful Keys over any other LDS group.
So, if you have read all of these statements from history, and read all of the articles linked to in this blog post... has your view changed? Can you now consider what some of us have already considered, and see what we see? If not, please do some more research and praying on the matter and get back with me:)
Denver Snuffer explains some good things on priesthood, plural marriage and the Patriarchal Order in his plural marriage talk linked to above (and his blog and in Passing the Heavenly Gift). This topic has been quite controversial and messy since Joseph Smith... but there is an answer as to why things have been out or order and so confusing. There is always an explanation, a reason. Our great Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and others) lived plurality and did raise children through all of their wives. Joseph Smith did state that he intended to bring back all that the priesthood of the past had, as part of the restoration of all things. Surely an interesting topic that has plagued Mormonism, Judaism and others since it was lived by those in our Old Testament.
I love the Lord. I love what He was trying to restore with Joseph Smith and prophets in our scriptures. Though my journey was mentally painful at times, the answers did come. I was patient. I sought the truth above my own pre-conceived understandings. I was and still am, a true seeker of truth. I know the Lord can come through for you and answer any question you may have. It may take some time, some underlying necessary fore knowledge, and then some more time and explanation... but seek and you shall find.
So, consider and then get back with me. Let me know when we can setup your baptism to show your faith in the continued work of the Father in our day, ok? :)
To the truth and nothing but,
I had spent a couple years researching "greater things" that the church use to live and do. That included Joseph Smith's history, church history and fundamentalist history. I even spent a couple years trying to find a priesthood group who might hold higher priesthood to live higher things. I even thought to be a part of the AUB in 2009, though I knew they too were "out of order" in the connection with heaven among their leadership (I had already seen that disconnect within mainstream Mormonism for over a century, and I was so sad to find other groups claiming that their Priesthood leaders have "all the keys", even more than the church held... only to find that they too suffer from that usual silence from heaven).
My LDS mainstream family and friends were alienating their hearts from me, for me simply trying to find out what happened with our history. I was searching church and fundamentalist histories. I was visiting different groups and places. Investigating all the different forms of Mormonism found in our day. After all, in our mainstream Mormon mindset, those kinds of members who seek, search, knock and ponder deeply... "go off the deep end", or become "apostate", so we falsely judge at times. The only people then welcoming me with open arms were fundamentalist friends. But my search there also ended up not yielding the fruits I was looking for. At this time I did know that no one was a Prophet quite like Joseph Smith was (seriously, look at his fruits), but I at least thought that Brigham and John Taylor were at least close to it. In late 2009 I was told by some new friends I met at Avraham Gileadi classes about Denver Snuffer. I had his first book setting on my shelf. I hadn't read it yet. I went home to begin. I read a few of his books. I began reading his blog. I commented a lot on his blog. I started contacting him via email early in 2010.
I had began to understand that Snuffer saw things being "out of order" clear back to the death of Joseph Smith and Hyrum. He told me there was a break (I can publicly say what he said privately in 2010, because he just declared it publicly in his plural marriage talk in 2015). But up to this point in my journey, I enjoyed some of the historical writings from and about Brigham Young and John Taylor. I mean, Pres Taylor was a stalwart type of man who would stand up for what he thought was true and right, no matter what. He said he would not give up on plural marriage being lived within the church, but that another President would have to do that. He sacrificed and suffered much to do so. Pres. Woodruff said he would never give up on it as well, at least at first. Then later he gives the manifesto as a way to deceptively make the government think that they had given up on it. If you have read Michael Quin's history on that topic: http://www.lds-mormon.com/quinn_polygamy.shtml - you will soon realize that press release, sometimes considered a "revelation" in mainstream Mormonism, was a red herring... a way to dishonestly try to get Utah territory to become a part of the United States, while still secretly continuing to live "their religion". The U.S. government wanted the Mormons to give up on plural marriage before giving them statehood. The leadership of the Mormons did not want to give up on something that Pres Young had begun within the church as a whole, and started teaching was a mandatory thing to become "one of the Sons of God" or to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Well, that press release was not in their minds to honor. In actuality, if you read the first manifesto, it really says they would stop doing plural marriages within the confines of the USA (or Utah territory they wanted to be a part of it). The leadership and others kept taking new wives after 1890. But they would have marriages performed secretly or outside the USA. They tried to "meet in the middle". But essentially, it was dishonest and deceptive to do what they did. That is why Pres. J.F. Smith had to issue another manifesto in 1906. There were a few more plural marriages that took place with church leadership approval even after that.
So here we are in 2015. Denver Snuffer and many within the LDS Remnant Community or the "new movement" (or rather the continuation of the restoration that began with Joseph Smith) that is occurring, are now saying that things have been out of order since 1844. I just recently had someone say to me (and I've been told the same before) something to the effect that: I can't accept or be a part of the LDS Remnant, because I don't like what they say about Brigham Young and John Taylor. Hence, the writing of this post.
But what does Snuffer and many within the new movement actually state? I think we allow Brigham Young to speak for himself. We discuss some of the negative history about Brigham's life that most do not want to hear, and we let others come to their own conclusion on the matter. But, you have to actually do some reading and research. What did he do as church President and Politician? What did he think? What were some things Brigham didn't understand, that he should have, if he held the keys to get answers to questions? Why was there a period of 3 years of confusion after the death of Joseph Smith? Have you read Andrew Ehat's BYU thesis paper on that matter yet? If not, you should stop and read it now: http://www.scribd.com/doc/35205295/Joseph-Smith-s-Introduction-of-Temple-Ordinances-and-the-1844-Mormon-Succession-Question-by-Andrew-Ehat#scribd
Let Brigham speak for himself:
"I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet…” The Office Journal of Brigham Young, 1858-1863, Book D (Hanna, UT: Collier’s Publishing Co., 2006),
Journal of Discourses, 5:177
"I do not profess to be a Prophet. I never called myself so; but I actually believe I am, because people are all the time telling me that I am."
"I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;” Brigham Young, Sermon, July 26, 1857, JD 5:77.
"I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people.” Brigham Young, Sermon, October, 7, 1864, JD 10:339.
"A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? . . . Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient." Journal of Discourses, 6:320
"You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles . . ." Times and Seasons, 5:618
The brethren testify that brother Brigham is brother Joseph's legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock. I do not care a groat who rises up. I do not think anything about being Joseph's successor. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:69.)
Another's retelling of what Brigham told her:
"Later near the end of his life, Susa Young Gates recorded that when asked if he had ever seen the Savior, Brigham responded that he hadn’t, and that he didn’t expect to until he died." Note, 1885, Susa Young Gates Collection, Box 11, Folder 1, Subfolder 1, Utah State Archives, Salt Lake City.
Mary Rollins Lightner, one of Joseph’s wives, wrote about her confrontation with an Angel. She remembered a bit of a conflict with Brigham in the waning days of Nauvoo and wrote that “he Said he would give anything to have seen what I had.” Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Autobiography, in B. Carmon Hardy, ed., Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy: It’s Origin, Practice, and Demise (Norman, OK: Arthur H. Clark Co., 2007), 48.
By their fruits?
"Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, pg. 247, 1856)
"…They are the old hardened sinners, and are almost—if not altogether—past improvement, and are full of hell, and my prayer is that God's indignation may rest upon them, and that He will curse them from the crown of their heads to the soles of their feet. I say, that there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood… I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood… They are a perfect nuisance, and I want them cut off, and the sooner it is done the better.” (J.M. Grant, First Presidency, Journal of Discourses vol. 4: 219-220 Sept. 21,1856 SLC, Utah)"
Ok, so you get the picture. Above is what Brigham Young said about himself. There are a couple quotes of what others said Brigham stated to them. If you want to make more of Brigham than what he himself said of himself, that is your prerogative I suppose.
So, I came across quotes like these on my own. I knew none of the LDS Presidents after Joseph were prophets like he was. Then in 2012, Snuffer wrote this for a sunstone presentation. It is definitely worth the read. Full of quotes and history of the time Brigham Young was at the head of the church and territory: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BrighamYoungsTelestialKingdomRevised.pdf
In 2012, Denver published Passing the Heavenly Gift (search on Amazon.com), which contains some more hard to hear history that occurred under Brigham's leadership. You can say that I had a very hard time dealing with some of this history, as I once had thought that "the break" or that things were "out of order" since 1890, after Pres. Taylor.
Another good read about why things are out of order since Joseph, and where Denver states the break is the break in the Patriarchal Order that God was trying to restore with Joseph Smith, read Denver's Plural Marriage talk here: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/download/Plural_Marriage.mp3.zip
Be sure to take note of Brigham's dream about Joseph Smith in Denver's talk above. Brigham misunderstood the Law Of Adoption as a whole. Others were asking him what to do with that principle. Brigham has a dream of meeting Joseph Smith. In that dream Brigham ask's Joseph what to do, and Joseph doesn't answer his question, but just says to just follow the spirit. Here Brigham has a question. He doesn't know what to say on it. Even in his dream, and let's suppose it is inspired, then Joseph Smith is avoiding answering his question, precisely because not even Brigham Young is on par enough to receive the answer.
Also consider the history about Brigham making plural marriage a public church requirement. Remember, Joseph Smith was in fact sealing wives to himself (though we have no proof of him having relations that produced offspring with his sealed plural wives), and allowing very few others to live it as well. It was for a tight knit group within the church, but not a church wide thing to live in Joseph's day. If God actually wanted them to keep this going within the church, wouldn't He have made a way for their escape, for it to remain? Wouldn't God had protected their "religious right" and kept it in the church if it was as important as Brigham stated?
Though this history is hard to read or hear, it is necessary to understand why things have been out of order since Joseph Smith, Jr.
Ok, what about Pres. Taylor and Woodruff?
Well, if things were out of order since Joseph left the church to themselves, maybe it got back in order somewhere after Brigham? I wish that was the case.
Now, didn't the Lord state that He would fight their battles, if they were in the right way? Pres. Taylor spent a lot of time defending this principle. The familiar picture of him and the presidency in jailbird stripes comes to mind. The feds were threatening to not give them statehood. Taylor stood up for what he thought was right. He never gave in to their "enemies".
At first, Pres. Woodruff gives a couple revelations saying that they should never give up on this principle. Later we here him attending a meeting at the Bohemian Grove. Probably invited their by other elite. You can search that for yourself, it is still going on today in CA. Presidents and wealthy still attend it. They don't know what their ritual is actually teaching them, but they do participate. Alex Jones exposed it all on youtube and you can search it there. Woodruff at first said they would never give up on it. But the USA pressured him and the other leaders enough to make them afraid and to give in to that manipulative pressure. They were afraid of having their new buildings and new temples taken away from them by the feds if they did not give it up. So they try to fake it, hoping they can get their statehood and openly live plural marriage again later. The plan didn't work. Plural marriage was later completely removed from the church and it has never been brought back since. That same church began to reject members who didn't want to give it up just like the leaders had formerly done, and after being taught for decades that is was required for exaltation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Now ask yourself, why would God allow this to be removed from the Church, if Pres. Woodruff or Pres. J.F. Smith held the keys? Didn't the Lord declare that He would fight their battles? Why did Pres. Brigham Young have to ponder and the have a dream were Joseph wouldn't even answer him there? If our President's automatically get to hold "the Keys", what are they? Pres. Taylor tried to put together a "Book of Keys", trying to figure out what they are. Do they magically get them because we sustain them as our Priesthood Presidents? What about the key to ask and receive answers? Surely they were asking, and surely they were not receiving like the Prophet Joseph did, or like the many that fill our scriptures. It looks to me that the Lord never wanted to keep plural marriage alive, let alone make it a church requirement for highest exaltation. If there was a break, and men go on claiming to hold all the keys that Joseph held, while also understanding that they are not even close to being connected with God like he was... would God want this not very-well understood principle made as a church wide program? Could it be that God actually wanted it to end the way it was being practiced, and used the government to eradicate before more of a mess could be made?
Keep looking into church history after the manifestos. Keep looking into Mormon fundamentalist history since short creek. Things do not get any better. The whole thing just gets more confusing. More division is the usual course to so much confusion, being tossed to and fro. You have the plural marriage confusion. You have current LDS leaders going against what Pres. Brigham Young said about blacks never be able to hold priesthood, and the current leadership saying that they do not accept anyone who says such things. We have continued changes, doctrines and removals in LDS temple ordinances. Here we are today, confusion still reigns, while so many still claim to hold the only valid all powerful Keys over any other LDS group.
So, if you have read all of these statements from history, and read all of the articles linked to in this blog post... has your view changed? Can you now consider what some of us have already considered, and see what we see? If not, please do some more research and praying on the matter and get back with me:)
Denver Snuffer explains some good things on priesthood, plural marriage and the Patriarchal Order in his plural marriage talk linked to above (and his blog and in Passing the Heavenly Gift). This topic has been quite controversial and messy since Joseph Smith... but there is an answer as to why things have been out or order and so confusing. There is always an explanation, a reason. Our great Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and others) lived plurality and did raise children through all of their wives. Joseph Smith did state that he intended to bring back all that the priesthood of the past had, as part of the restoration of all things. Surely an interesting topic that has plagued Mormonism, Judaism and others since it was lived by those in our Old Testament.
I love the Lord. I love what He was trying to restore with Joseph Smith and prophets in our scriptures. Though my journey was mentally painful at times, the answers did come. I was patient. I sought the truth above my own pre-conceived understandings. I was and still am, a true seeker of truth. I know the Lord can come through for you and answer any question you may have. It may take some time, some underlying necessary fore knowledge, and then some more time and explanation... but seek and you shall find.
So, consider and then get back with me. Let me know when we can setup your baptism to show your faith in the continued work of the Father in our day, ok? :)
To the truth and nothing but,
Wednesday, February 11, 2015
What Is Necessary
The Book Of Mormon is necessary to help prepare YOU for the coming restoration. It helps us understand that the Lord’s words in bible prophecies were partially fulfilled when ministering to other scattered tribes of IsraEL (lots of meaning in this word... see Christ’s comments about dogs and not healing the woman of a different lineage, but did so anyway with her continued plea and comment about dogs eating crumbs). The BOM helps us realize that the full restorative work of the Father is not full and there is more to come, but it also helps us connect with the Lord like the examples found within, in any day or circumstance. That is necessary. The connecting part, whether you have just the writings of Moses, or whether you have tons more like the LDS church has had for nearly two centuries. The BOM is another witness, along side the bible, that in the last days (now!), the work of the Father would include a restoration of the true Christian Gospel and a gathering of a final remnant of descendants into places of refuge and finally into Zion for the start of the millenial era, would occur before the wrapping up of this creation period.
Do we need the Book of Mormon?
Lehi connected with the Savior direct, with just the help from Isaiah and previous prophets alone. He was one of the many, true connected prophets, like Jeremiah (in the bible) who existed at the same time Lehi did. Only a portion of the bible records Lehi held in 580bc. I would think that anyone interested in what God has done with mankind in the past, would want to read all prophetic records, to look for the pattern of how men connected with heaven direct, and how to avoid the same failures of the past. Connecting with God or re-connecting, individually is absolutely necessary. I suppose the LDS and even the awakening LDS Remnant might could have more angelic ministrations... but with the amount of scripture we do have, and the mortal angelic ministers that are among us today, are enough to get us started in the right path. What matters is the path to Christ and Him working with you directly. Not the angelic mortals(past mortals and present) or angels from beyond the veil who only share with you truths that point in the right direction.
"Holy" Priesthood?
Denver Snuffer has stated in the books {see the First 3 Words paper and Ephraim talk by Denver Snuffer}, (as he points out hints in the scriptures), some have qualified in a probational period and obtained priesthood, the one real priesthood, from before this life. It just needs re-activated by the baptism of fire (born again into the fold or Church of Christ) and true revelation from the one who stands at that gate. This is required for greater things (referring to what is symbolicly shown in LDS first and second endowment ceremonies for those who know about such things).
Many are called or given this Holy Priesthood from before this life (because of their choosing the right path by faith before), but few are chosen, or rather come to have it re-confirmed and re-activated here. See Alma 13 and JST Gen 14. All of them are called to seek their calling and election (and associated promises) and coming into the presence of the Son and then the Father while in mortality, if not obtained "before", or reconfirmed in this life if they did. Maybe some obtained C&E and/or the Second Comforter actual face to face visitations before this life also and just need to obtain more and help others. Maybe some have obtained more already in this life (“there are those of you who have your calling and elections made sure... doubt not the word of God” – DS, Ephraim talk). Likely those who obtained such great things are among the noble and great. Are there an "even more noble and great" who come back again (the Angels seek them out and prepare them for that mission) to perform missions to help lift other unknowing children of EL to be elevated? Christ, a Son of God, the Savior of all, One who had greater things than us all, had done a greater but similar mortal mission. Pick up your cross and follow the prototype of the saved man? Some things take more than one probation. Some are on missions, but still ascending into higher stations. Regardless of our what standing we hold (and others), we must be progressing upwards and help others do the same.
“Ye are gods." "The Kingdom of God is within you.” -Christ told those He was ministering to, and they were confused. What? Gods in the making? In the process and can become such? People fore-ordained before the world was to become such? People who come again to obtain that which they might not have yet obtained before this life? Children of the Fathers before us, who formerly became adopted "Sons/Daughters of God" (who obtained promises that their future seed/children would one day be a part of the latter day remnant who is gathered into Zion), or became as the gods meaning they would have eternal lives like them and God sees them as in eternity now? Are some who come into this mortality, on an even higher noble and great standing, and come to perform a grand mission? Surely, those meek enough to qualify to have that revelation on where they stand, never want to accept what they held and hold. Either way, behave as if we do and don’t have that standing as others.
If you realize just how far you progressed before this life (God views us in eternity, in the now), especially many within the church and remnant, or those coming across "this gospel" (the correct truths and fullness of it)... how great the weight when you realize what you could lose, if you don’t shake free of any mortal problems obtained in this life, and rise up and elevate others. If you want a promise of eternal life (or to keep it), then assist others to obtain such and be exalted in the process of assisting heaven their work and glory. But do it in the right way, or be subject to impeding the way... as our scriptures show so many failures, and as our modern organized religions of today have shown.
Add this all to the fact that the division so many LDS and other fellow Christian believers have talked about one day occurring, is beginning. Is it another “war in heaven” now beginning (a time to get on the right side of the fence and choose Christ's individual come to Him direct teachings, over telestial, idolatrous rely on the teachings of priesthood leaders) before a coming cleansing and millenial (Adam/Eve type) era. Gods then setting foot on this world again. Then another fall (just think, Adam lived almost 1,000 years... a millennial period). "A new world?" Creation periods or "worlds".... without end?
If you realize just how far you progressed before this life (God views us in eternity, in the now), especially many within the church and remnant, or those coming across "this gospel" (the correct truths and fullness of it)... how great the weight when you realize what you could lose, if you don’t shake free of any mortal problems obtained in this life, and rise up and elevate others. If you want a promise of eternal life (or to keep it), then assist others to obtain such and be exalted in the process of assisting heaven their work and glory. But do it in the right way, or be subject to impeding the way... as our scriptures show so many failures, and as our modern organized religions of today have shown.
Add this all to the fact that the division so many LDS and other fellow Christian believers have talked about one day occurring, is beginning. Is it another “war in heaven” now beginning (a time to get on the right side of the fence and choose Christ's individual come to Him direct teachings, over telestial, idolatrous rely on the teachings of priesthood leaders) before a coming cleansing and millenial (Adam/Eve type) era. Gods then setting foot on this world again. Then another fall (just think, Adam lived almost 1,000 years... a millennial period). "A new world?" Creation periods or "worlds".... without end?
This is serious stuff. I hope those reading this take it so. Look out into the world, and SEE, just who are saying follow and connect with Christ(terrestrial level) over the vain telestial teachings of men (follow the mortal church leader and he will take you safely there). Just who are fighting against the work of the Father now beginning and fighting against a true Zion, who otherwise should not be and think that "all is well"? Is your priestly leader or pastor involved in that, even if they don't really realize it or what they are doing?
Upon my house shall it begin... we can see why. Where much was given and offered to the gentile (also descendents of Israel) people in the 1800's, and then much is given and offered again, a second time in our time... much is required, and much will be lost if not received before it is too late. Amos 3:7 - surely God will not do it, unless He sends His prophets or messengers to warn them first. Then it comes... just as biblical and book of Mormon prophets showed happened to their people, and as they saw would happen in the last days.
Upon my house shall it begin... we can see why. Where much was given and offered to the gentile (also descendents of Israel) people in the 1800's, and then much is given and offered again, a second time in our time... much is required, and much will be lost if not received before it is too late. Amos 3:7 - surely God will not do it, unless He sends His prophets or messengers to warn them first. Then it comes... just as biblical and book of Mormon prophets showed happened to their people, and as they saw would happen in the last days.
Friday, September 12, 2014
The Remnant Gathering
I am sure you have heard the news, if not you will hear plenty of it soon enough. The Remnant Gatherings of like minded believers has begun!
This is in preparation of the coming of Zion! The one that nearly all the prophets have spoken on in the last days, that would usher in the mellenium!
The Lord has performed a part of His "strange act" that I mentioned previously. On Sep 9, 2014, Denver Snuffer publicly declared that the Lord has moved forward without the LDS church leaders, to perform the prophesied work of the last days. In fact, Denver declared that because of continued abuse and error (and not repenting of it when given the chance), and removing a man who personally knows the Lord, that on April 14, 2014, the Lord removed the remaining priesthood held by them.
Be sure to read Denver's Phoenix talk here (when it is posted): http://www.scribd.com/DCSnuffer
If you need help finding a local group of like minded believers to join with, send me an email: restoredtruths@gmail.com
There will be no costly church buildings erected (more money for the poor among us). There will be no one above the other. You can still be a part of the LDS or fundamentalist group you are a part of if you like. There will be authorized ordinances such as conferring Aaronic Priesthood, Baptism and Sacrament still taking place, but they are servants, not your leaders. The local groups must sustain a person to perform or receive ordinances in the group setting. Records will be kept for storing in the future temple. Tithing will be gathered and used to help one another, not to build up Babylon or your portfolio. No one will be prevented from taking the Sacrament. Everything in a group will be done by common consent, as equals. A future gathering and the final Zion temple will come where the Lord Himself can meet with us.
EXCITING TIMES! But extremely serious times as well. If we bring in the having one above the other and trusting too much in the arms of flesh errors we are use to having for the past 185 years, the Lord could move on with just a few others to accomplish what He needs. I am sure more warnings will be declared, but let us please remember the numerous failures all through history. There have only been a few successful Zions all through history. But this one, the last one to bring in the millennial period, is extremely important and needs to succeed. We need to cleanse ourselves, seek to obtain gifts of the Spirit of God, seek the will of and the face of God. We need to serve and love everyone in our groups. We need to be prepared to be a part of something so amazing.
Ask the Father if these things are not true. Take a look at the state of the world and the signs of the times! Prophecies have been fulfilled! TODAY IS THE DAY TO BE A PART OF SOMETHING GOD IS DOING! Do not delay. Doubt your own doubts. Search the prophecies on all these matters. Hear the voice of God for yourself. Forget the Lo Here, Lo there, come follow a man declarations. Along the way you can find your Calling and Election made sure and have the visitation from the Lord. The greater principles and blessings of the gospel will be made known after we receive those higher standings before the Lord. For now, lets teach the Doctrines of Christ, and everything else will follow.
Now is the time to become closer to the Father and Son. Repenting is turning towards them and never look back. Join a local assembly of like minded friends. Comfort others, be comforted. Serve and be served. Love and be loved.
Again, if you have not read Denver's books starting with "The Second Comforter", please do so immediately. It is best to read all those books before listening to his 40 Yrs in Mormonism lectures (actually Zion prep courses). Search the scriptures for the prophecies concerning these things. Look at the patterns of how God worked with failed religious groups in the past. See how the prophets in those scriptures connected with God. See what the LDS temples are really trying to teach. Liken and do the same! God bless us all with the strength to succeed in His Work. WE CANNOT FAIL AGAIN!!!
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